{"id":9225,"date":"2023-04-19T20:23:23","date_gmt":"2023-04-19T20:23:23","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.deltastate.edu\/library\/?page_id=9225"},"modified":"2023-06-19T21:55:13","modified_gmt":"2023-06-19T21:55:13","slug":"tommy-naron","status":"publish","type":"page","link":"https:\/\/www.deltastate.edu\/library\/tommy-naron\/","title":{"rendered":"Tommy Naron"},"content":{"rendered":"[vc_row type=”in_container” full_screen_row_position=”middle” column_margin=”default” column_direction=”default” column_direction_tablet=”default” column_direction_phone=”default” scene_position=”center” text_color=”dark” text_align=”left” row_border_radius=”none” row_border_radius_applies=”bg” overlay_strength=”0.3″ gradient_direction=”left_to_right” shape_divider_position=”bottom” bg_image_animation=”none”][vc_column column_padding=”no-extra-padding” column_padding_tablet=”inherit” column_padding_phone=”inherit” column_padding_position=”all” column_element_spacing=”default” background_color_opacity=”1″ background_hover_color_opacity=”1″ column_shadow=”none” column_border_radius=”none” column_link_target=”_self” gradient_direction=”left_to_right” overlay_strength=”0.3″ width=”1\/1″ tablet_width_inherit=”default” tablet_text_alignment=”default” phone_text_alignment=”default” bg_image_animation=”none” border_type=”simple” column_border_width=”none” column_border_style=”solid”][divider line_type=”No Line”][vc_column_text]\n

Tommy Naron Oral History<\/span><\/h1>\n[\/vc_column_text][divider line_type=”No Line”][page_submenu alignment=”center” sticky=”true” bg_color=”#008542″ link_color=”#ffffff”][page_link link_url=”https:\/\/www.deltastate.edu\/library\/manuscripts-and-guides\/” title=”Manuscripts & Subject Guides<\/strong>” id=”1681935576181-2″ tab_id=”1681935576182-1″] [\/page_link][page_link link_url=”https:\/\/www.deltastate.edu\/library\/guides-to-the-collection-page\/” title=”Collections Portal<\/strong>” id=”1681935576190-7″ tab_id=”1681935576191-1″] [\/page_link][page_link title=”Visit<\/strong>” id=”1681935588046-9″ tab_id=”1681935588047-5″ link_url=”https:\/\/www.deltastate.edu\/library\/departments\/archives-museum\/visit\/”][\/page_link][page_link title=”Make a Request<\/strong>” id=”1681935588737-0″ tab_id=”1681935588738-1″ link_url=”https:\/\/www.deltastate.edu\/library\/departments\/archives-museum\/requests\/”][\/page_link][page_link title=”About Us<\/strong>” id=”1681935590095-3″ tab_id=”1681935590096-1″ link_url=”https:\/\/www.deltastate.edu\/library\/departments-archives-museum-about-us\/”][\/page_link][page_link title=”Yearbooks Online<\/strong>” id=”1681935591115-8″ tab_id=”1681935591116-5″ link_url=”https:\/\/www.deltastate.edu\/library\/departments\/archives-museum\/yearbooks-alumni-magazines-delta-state-histories\/”][\/page_link][\/page_submenu][\/vc_column][\/vc_row][vc_row type=”in_container” full_screen_row_position=”middle” column_margin=”default” column_direction=”default” column_direction_tablet=”default” column_direction_phone=”default” scene_position=”center” text_color=”dark” text_align=”left” row_border_radius=”none” row_border_radius_applies=”bg” overlay_strength=”0.3″ gradient_direction=”left_to_right” shape_divider_position=”bottom” bg_image_animation=”none”][vc_column column_padding=”no-extra-padding” column_padding_tablet=”inherit” column_padding_phone=”inherit” column_padding_position=”all” column_element_spacing=”default” background_color_opacity=”1″ background_hover_color_opacity=”1″ column_shadow=”none” column_border_radius=”none” column_link_target=”_self” gradient_direction=”left_to_right” overlay_strength=”0.3″ width=”1\/1″ tablet_width_inherit=”default” tablet_text_alignment=”default” phone_text_alignment=”default” bg_image_animation=”none” border_type=”simple” column_border_width=”none” column_border_style=”solid”][vc_column_text]Interviewer: Ambrose Webster II<\/strong><\/p>\n

Interviewee: Tommy Naron<\/strong><\/p>\n

Date: May 10, 2001<\/strong><\/p>\n

AW: And I have the honor of doing an oral history interview with Mr. Tommy Naron the Headmaster of Presbyterian Day School and we\u2019re going to be talking about his activity and um\u2026 his role he played during the civil rights movement. Mr. Naron if you would introduce yourself to us and tell us about your history about how where you were born, your parents and where you grew up and your education if you will please.<\/p>\n

TN: My name is Tommy Naron uh\u2026 I was born here in Cleveland, Mississippi uh\u2026 on March 22, 1950. Uh\u2026born to Efrum Ell Naron and Irene Minus Naron. We grew up on a family farm east of Cleveland on what\u2019s called the County Line Road between Bolivar and Sunflower counties uh\u2026 I was the last of four children, my dad had a daughter who was by his first marriage uh\u2026 he had to get custody of while he was in Service and my mother had a son that her husband got killed in World War II and they came back from the war got married and had two more babies which was my brother and me, Billy uh\u2026is two years older than me and then me which I was born in 1950. Uh\u2026certainly grew up in very modest means uh\u2026on a family farm uh\u2026we were basically an average size farm with many hand laborers grew up with many black families on our family farm. Went to Cleveland Public Schools got all my education on one street uh\u2026 went to Pearman Elementary School then on to Margaret Green Junior High and then on to Cleveland High School and uh as growing up went we went to basically segregated schools uh\u2026the school did not integrate until certainly my last couple of years in high school uh\u2026we did not have integration there until sometime in 1966 or so as I best remember it. I graduated Cleveland High School in 1968 and went on to Delta State and received a degree in education, got my masters degree there and went into the school business in 1973 uh\u2026was an elementary school principal and uh\u2026 a teacher at Sharkey-Issaquena Academy in Rolling Fork, Mississippi then came back and uh\u2026my dad was ill and back into the family farm operation to finish that up and uh\u2026didn\u2019t stay many years in that. Then got involved in a political race and served five years on the Bolivar County Board of Supervisors. Was in business or whatever and then came back and over the last few years been involved in being a part of Presbyterian Day School which I have a background as far as education is concerned. Certainly have enjoyed that part of it. I have the opportunity to all my education on one street which I call this is Highway eight or Sunflower road here in Cleveland, Mississippi. So uh\u2026then in 1973 I married Memory McCool who is a teacher at Pearman Elementary School and also a cheerleader sponsor for Margaret Green Junior High and Cleveland High School and also is a Tennis coach for them and she teaches reading at Pearman Elementary School too. So uh\u2026we are a family that had one child, he\u2019s a senior at Ole Miss, his name is David and will finish his business degree this summer at the University of Mississippi. So we have had a wonderful life, I\u2019m 51 years old this year, experienced a lot of things and done a lot of things and uh\u2026 been a part of a lot of things so far in my lifetime so that gives you a little idea of where I\u2019ve been uh\u2026and uh I haven\u2019t gotten into anything I\u2019ve been a part of but uh\u2026 Let me get into that just a little bit. I truly believe in public service, I believe in community involvement I have done numerous things as far as being active in all kind of professional organizations I\u2019ve been in the Lions Club for over 25 years or so I have certainly enjoyed that particular participation, active in my church as Deacon, serving as Sunday school teacher and other activities uh\u2026certainly the Christian faith is a big part of my life and I certainly am a advocate of my Christian faith uh\u2026certainly professionally and a lot of different organizations in support of Delta State and the Chamber of Commerce in Cleveland and Farm Bureau and many organizations that make this community what it is uh\u2026certainly from every kind of charitable organization uh\u2026 and causes that we need to support from March of Dimes to cancer to heart whatever it takes to be sure we have a good community. Uh\u2026certainly believe in the Chamber and what it does, certainly believe we have a opportunity to make life better for us if we work together in the community and that type thing. So that gives you a little background of where I am and what I\u2019ve been involved in.<\/p>\n

AW: Um.. as far as you said that you went to Rolling Fork and you worked there at a school in Rolling Fork and then you came back up to take care of the family farm due to your father\u2019s illness about what year was that approximately?<\/p>\n

TN: Uh\u2026that was in year 75.<\/p>\n

AW: 75.<\/p>\n

TN: 75.<\/p>\n

AW: Okay, so as far as the civil rights goes you were at the schools there in Rolling Fork during the civil rights era?<\/p>\n

TN: Uh\u2026 a little bit. I guess you\u2019d say civil rights there yeah. Uh\u2026I went to\u2026when I got out of school I interviewed to go teach anywhere I could have gone to Meridian I could Hattiesburg but they offered more money at particular spots, so I took the job at Rolling Fork instead of taking it here. Um\u2026let me talk to a little bit about race relations and about the civil rights movement. You know I certainly, the civil rights movement to me was something that I really didn\u2019t understand completely for I didn\u2019t know that there was a problem as far as race was concerned as I grew up because I grew up in the country, I grew up in a rural area where some of my best friends and the people I played with during the week out in the country was the children of the helpers on our farm and so I didn\u2019t know really a whole lot of difference about as far as that part was concerned as I grew older I understood the process of what was happening in America today and how there was some people that had not been treated as fair as they should have been treated but in turn we didn\u2019t understand because we treated people quite fair. Uh\u2026we knew that they were going to school like we were going, they didn\u2019t go to the same school as we did, but that was just one of those things that was part of the whole regime going on in America that there was separate schools. Uh\u2026my family taught me that you treat individuals as persons, as real individual people who God created, and so there was never a time in my life that there was anything that would even relate to somebody being not who they should have been to another race. Uh\u2026we were taught that God made them and we should respect them, where we had the real problems were in our area here there\u2019s just so many people that felt like that uh\u2026so many people in opposite some of the minority races um\u2026didn\u2019t live up to their expectations as they should have lived up and there were some people who let some people down uh\u2026 as far as the minorities. But in turn there were so many people who needed to see something happen in the right direction and we were doing that, I ran for political office in this county uh\u2026ran county wide for Mississippi House of Representatives uh\u2026and uh\u2026 I was 25 years old in 1975 uh\u2026 ran a race and came down and got and only lost by a couple hundred votes or so uh\u2026for the Mississippi House of Representatives at 25. Then four years later went in and served five years on the Board of Supervisors and being elected in 1979 and serving from 80 to 85. And certainly I ran in a district that was majority black uh\u2026I had friends who were of the black race uh\u2026don\u2019t really like the political process ever of having to through in Bolivar county to get elected but I enjoyed serving my black constituents and that type thing. But as the Civil Rights era was going and it seemed like things were going unfair to so many different people cause, I never was and never have been ugly to anyone. I didn\u2019t know anybody could carry a chip on their shoulder because of some reason that somebody else caused a problem for or whether somebody in my ancestry somewhere back far away did something ugly to a slave. I didn\u2019t understand that because I\u2019ve never done that in my entire life, I didn\u2019t understand why people should have a chip on their shoulder because I had simply did not treat\u2026and the people I knew didn\u2019t treat anybody ugly uh\u2026or didn\u2019t treat them with respect and the dignity that they so needed. I admired many of the people who I\u2019ve came in contact with. Uh for many, many years I served on the Community Action Program Board here uh\u2026 and during that entire time I really felt strongly that I could make a difference that we could break that whole cycle of babies having babies and didn\u2019t matter whether it was the black race or the white race but I felt like strongly that we had a cycle going on of unmarried young children having babies and somehow we, through Head Start and other particular organizations we could come together and we could do something to make a difference for the next generation that we could stop this thing of unwed mothers having babies and having teenage pregnancies and just children who were unwanted to come into this world and so many of us believed that that was possible and worked and have continued to work hard even in times when probably there was a lot of mistrust going on and some people trying to do some things that maybe weren\u2019t as excepted on both sides of that coin whether it be in the black community or the white community. But many of us believed and people that knew our hearts and knew that we were trying to do doing the right thing and continue to believe in what we are doing. But times did change in Cleveland, Mississippi, times have changed as far as the people having rights my big thing has always been people changing hearts, that means that it gets to a point where there\u2019s some people that truly believe\u2026 at one time I had some friends that could not understand, they simply had a real bad taste in their mouth for a baby or a child in the black community that was running around and not having any direction in their life, or having some kids to get in trouble but because they just felt like that they had a real bad taste in their mouth that those people shouldn\u2019t even be here. But I had a feeling, hey; it was not their choice to be born into this country. We have a certain responsibility to whoever comes and we have to be sure that they have a chance to be successful. So, that\u2019s my thought process on that a little bit.<\/p>\n

AW: Yes sir.<\/p>\n

TN: I\u2019ll stop and get on to the next question.<\/p>\n

AW: Okay, no that\u2019s fine. Um\u2026I think though I see where you\u2019ve come from and I see your thought process your talking about and what makes you who you are today, um\u2026there are events I\u2019m sure that you can recall as well as I can recall um\u2026 I was born in \u201963 but um\u2026 really stick out in your mind, maybe when you were a youth going through school and you remember hearing about Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. being shot or I myself have come through times and education and have come to an awareness of the injustices that are even still today.<\/p>\n

TN: Sure.<\/p>\n

AW: Um\u2026and I was oblivious to those things when I was younger. When can you recall, what particular events can you recall back in your youth and events can you recall that have shaped you the way you are today and any particular event that sticks out in your mind that is uh\u2026 worth noting as far as historical and um\u2026 how that has helped you obviously want to seek out and help your fellow man?<\/p>\n

TN: I think one of the things I didn\u2019t really understand there was instances there was some people doing some things they shouldn\u2019t have been doing and hurting other people but I was oblivious to it because I knew in my realm of things here I didn\u2019t have that problem, I didn\u2019t know anybody specifically was being discriminated against. You know what, hey we saw that but we didn\u2019t\u2026there was nobody that really brought it into the case until the people got on the crusade, I knew Fanny Lou Hamer uh\u2026I knew her later in life but I knew who she was beforehand because that she was kin to some people who had worked for us through our farming operation. But I knew who Fanny Lou Hamer was as an individual before I knew she had a cause and before she made her giant moves in the movement to change things in America especially in our area here. But truly I think when it really came down I didn\u2019t understand what it was about I thought it was something way away from here I thought it was something that was not a part of me. And then as I grew older and matured and understood specifically and in a time when there was integration in our schools I finally came to, I thought they were just trouble makers in 1966 and 67 and that time, I thought they were just trying cause us grief and problems. Why change. We didn\u2019t want change we didn\u2019t like change we liked it the way it was and so there was a part of us that said don\u2019t do this cause your just causing trouble uh\u2026and then there were some people who were trying to do it for political gain, they weren\u2019t really trying to help their people and so that really bothered us you know, big time. Uh\u2026. in our community I had, I guess the realization that really hit me uh\u2026when I started to a point of trying to work hard for making us a better community. I knew when I really in my early twenties that I had to find a way to carry our community forward as a whole. I guess probably my community involvement at that point really made me aware that we had to bring all our people forward together if we were going to be successful here.<\/p>\n

AW: Now you had said that in your early twenties that you saw positions that you couldn\u2019t effect those changes whether its political or whatever. Um\u2026in your political endeavors what would you say would be one of your noteworthy contributions as far as um\u2026 in the County Board of Supervisors or whatever. Would you say as far as being able to contribute to the community?<\/p>\n

TN: I think I was elected Supervisor in my county when I was 29 years old, one of the youngest people to ever be elected in this county. I also was elected President of Mississippi Association of Supervisors when I was about 34 years old. Probably one of the youngest guys to ever be elected President of that state organization of 420 officials, 410 elected officials. I think where I really made a difference was that I was a younger guy, I was not from the old school and I finally realized that if we were to be successful as a community and as a county and as a state that we were going to have to bring all our people together. There was a group that still may be involved that we formed the Mississippi Public Officials Association where we brought every elected official and especially in county government together from school boards to whatever. It wasn\u2019t municipal but it was all the others; and we came together, and probably one of the things that I was the original start of that, is we wanted to be sure that we didn\u2019t want to leave anybody behind and that\u2019s kind of a political statement now that Bush administration that maybe the bringing. But we came to the realization that that was, if we were going to be successful we had to be sure that everyone was touched by that and we had black officials then and in the state and we had talked to them and some of them wanted to have their own Black Supervisors Association or their black public officials and they still do but we tried very hard to not to let that happen if we could have an inclusion of everyone and we felt strongly that we needed to have that because it simply was divisionary if we had it any other way we had to bring everybody together. I think probably my thing through my work with the Community Action Program Board through my community involvement through my everything that everything that was happening is that I felt strongly that we couldn\u2019t do it by ourselves. Schools certainly were not integrated but knew the quality had to be there. There was a line that came through the city of Cleveland which still remains, based on a court order, that came through the middle of town and we still have two different schools basically uh\u2026 we have schools that are integrated but their not integrated entirely we still have predominately all black high school and 60% plus white high school on this side, we have all black elementary schools some to a certain extent or majority or high majority and then we have some 50\/50 schools. But even through that period of time when we had to make that, even with the great society of Linden Johnson uh\u2026we found out that we weren\u2019t going to be successful and I predict that we will never be successful if we don\u2019t bring everybody together along economically, socially, uh\u2026 education and even to the point I use this word emotionally to a certain extent the emotional good health of a community is based on people all being together. There will always probably be some divisions as far as races uh\u2026 I see sometimes where I still feel like we haven\u2019t made any progress in some areas but there\u2019s so many people, you know Ross Story who is a local Alderman and teaches out at Delta State, he and I grew up together. We watched each other as we\u2019ve grown we shot marbles under the tree together you know there\u2019s so many of them, my black friends in this community that I grew up with that don\u2019t understand it cause there\u2019s no problem with us individually. Uh\u2026if you talk about what\u2019s happening in America and what\u2019s happening quote in \u201cthe system\u201d uh\u2026 there\u2019s still some pockets of that that will always be there but there not to a point that they can\u2019t be corrected I think to be sure that leadership is not shown. It\u2019s not all about conservative politics it\u2019s not all about Republican and Democrat it\u2019s all about knowing that we\u2019re going to be successful in our communities, whether it be economically whether it be educationally, whether it be socially whatever the area we will have to not leave any particular group out, if we do it will drag us back down.<\/p>\n

AW: Yes sir.<\/p>\n

TN: I\u2019m preaching now, go ahead.<\/p>\n

AW: No that\u2019s okay. I uh\u2026appreciate you taking your time in the interview, I really do. Um\u2026I\u2019d like to go back a little further, if you don\u2019t mind, as far as when you graduated from high school uh\u2026 what college you went to and what helped you decide to go to that particular college and can you recall some of those events while you were in your college years?<\/p>\n

TN: My college years, let me go back to high school, my brother was a, he was a school bus driver and he picked up the first two students that ever, the first two black students that ever integrated Cleveland High School on his bus ride. They sat on the front seat of his bus and he picked them up in Renova, Mississippi and he was very much involved in that process to be sure that the proper things happened and he was a young guy when he did this. So we went through that whole process of integration in high school but basically we only had two young ladies to actually graduate with us from Cleveland High School. Out of 125 students only two were black. It didn\u2019t bother me too much one way or the other because I just didn\u2019t get involved, and didn\u2019t like controversy. But I went over to Delta State University and the reason why I went there is because I got some scholarship available uh\u2026and I needed to stay close to home for family reasons and whatever. But then I got involved in Delta State athletics uh\u2026 and involved in helping out in the football team arena and I got some scholarship money and work money to be able to get an education with and I liked that. I love athletics but I was a part of a athletic program who got the first black athletes in football, for many, many years we never had any black athletes, and we came in from that particular deal and even to a point where at the, we had these rather particular difficult incidents as we went through the integration process at Delta State. I think the most important thing of one particular controversy when there was some uh\u2026 a lot of discussion about the black and white situation and integration happening at Delta State but basically when athletics we got to the point where we respected the guys ability. Still there were those who didn\u2019t, had never played with a black player or against a black player and so in turn we didn\u2019t really know how to address that. We finally got to a point where we were really really, happy about those particular guys because we respected their ability and uh\u2026we respect them now because they have become productive citizens as part of that. But basically making a decision that was economic in one way uh\u2026 it was convenient in another way and it also uh\u2026 at the time you know we just didn\u2019t have a problem about integration and cause we were just, right after that particular part of being part of our high school.<\/p>\n

AW: Your brother drove the bus that picked up the first integration students for\u2026<\/p>\n

TN: Cleveland High School.<\/p>\n

AW: And then you were involved with receiving the first black athletes at Delta State. Um\u2026 were there any incidents, other interviews that I\u2019ve talked with people like at Shaw the National Guard came to Shaw at one time, there were no major incidents and that alleviated the possibilities of incidents, were there any major incidents or anything like that you\u2026recall?<\/p>\n

TN: A couple of major incidents that have, had a little something happen\u2026and incident happen in the cafeteria at Delta State and uh\u2026and then there was at one time there was supposedly a sit in with the black students at the administration building at Delta State. Probably the incidents I was more involved in, I served on the men\u2019s judiciary council at Delta State and that was when the students governed themselves to a certain extent and um\u2026had some involvement in some problems between black and white students that we dealt with in a very professional way and dealt with those situations where we felt they were very, very sensitive. So I had an opportunity to be a part of that particular uh\u2026. part of history at Delta State and as I go back and I think about it today I simply look back on it as something that we had to probably go through. We simply probably had to do it and then we had to learn from it and I can assure you now that you know everybody doesn\u2019t always get along. Uh\u2026there was much to do about where some people came from and what their real motive was. And that\u2019s probably where it hurt out movement here in the Delta more than anything, what was the real source. We had some people coming from out of State from other areas coming in to basically quote \u201ccause trouble\u201d, we seemed to be getting along fine by ourselves but there were some that really wanted to make a change and make a change and they came down to keep uh\u2026.to make major changes here like they wanted them to. And of course some people that were coming from bigger cities had done the job where they were but they felt like they could change the Mississippi Delta and make it into what it was suppose to be.<\/p>\n

AW: I heard a lot of people say that things were just fine until people came and stirred things up or something like that but from the stirring I guess of the racial pot here in the Delta, do you feel that progression has been in made, advances have been made I know we still have a long way to go uh\u2026with our prison systems. We have you know a inproportional amount of black people in prison verses white people um\u2026as opposed to the percentage of population and um\u2026we always here stories of racial steering as far as real estate and unfair banking processes and all sorts of things like that. I know we have a long way to go but um\u2026<\/p>\n

TN: I\u2019m a firm believer that in this area if a guy really, really cares, work hard he can deliver, I see a lot of good black friends that are successful and business another reason they put their nose to the grind. Uh\u2026 you know I think their still pockets of people who are holding people back I think their, I\u2019m not a firm believer that uh\u2026 that there\u2019s completely there might be a time where we don\u2019t need any kind of quotas or whatever. I would like everything to be based on a person\u2019s uh\u2026hard work and uh\u2026that every opportunity is opened to all races and all people. I think we\u2019ve come a long long way, sure there may be still be pockets but I believe there\u2019s a point that we\u2019ve come to a point where it is much better than it\u2019s ever been as far as opportunities are concerned. Probably where people get most upset around here that I know about and some people all over the country is when someone, someone will say to him, it\u2019s not based on whether you have the ability or not or whether your grades are a certain thing or whether you\u2019ve made a certain score uh\u2026the opportunities are going to be based upon whether you\u2019re a certain quota as far as black or white of course women are involved and I\u2019d like to know that those figures wouldn\u2019t be played right there, but it\u2019s still being done and uh\u2026whether we want to or not there\u2019s still some questions there.<\/p>\n

AW: Well, I had the opportunity to interview Judge Pearson<\/p>\n

TN: Did you? John.<\/p>\n

AW: John.<\/p>\n

TN: Wonderful, wonderful person.<\/p>\n

AW: Yes sir. He was instrumental in bringing Head Start to our area and all and a lot of educational advancements took place uh\u2026 during the era that he was on a county board of supervisors and then the you know the Legislature in Jackson and all. Um\u2026and you are a product of that era it seems, it seems you came into the county board of supervisors shortly there after and all so you may not have been in necessarily the development of it but you definitely saw the implementation and the after affects of those programs.<\/p>\n

TN: Right.<\/p>\n

AW: Um\u2026did you see much resistance from communities and residence in the community as far as the implementation of the integration and of Head Start and things like this.<\/p>\n

TN: Well, I think you\u2019re exactly right. I think there were pockets of resistance um\u2026. more than anything else there was federal money so readily available a great society that Linden Johnson started in the late sixties. Uh\u2026you know I think it was money that was just everywhere and you had money coming from left and right you didn\u2019t know where in the world it was coming from but uh\u2026 we utilized it big time. And uh\u2026hold on just a second\u2026PDS. But uh\u2026 we felt really strongly that even though there were some pockets of resistance to those programs that it became very evident to us that we had to implement them and we wanted to do it from local people trying to support that instead of some federal bureaucracy saying you need to come and spend this, this and this and do this, this and this and if you do this, this and this we\u2019re going to give you something else. And uh\u2026even though we all knew that, hey that there was a tough sale sometimes um\u2026but in turn federal programs with federal dollars uh\u2026.even though people were against them we knew that there had to be something done to bring us forward. I would say that people in the Mississippi Delta were further, especially minorities, were\u2026had further to go than some other areas of the country then there were some that didn\u2019t feel that way. Uh\u2026my greatest fear along that whole way was that we had so many people who just simply did not understand the importance of education. Uh\u2026I\u2019m a firm believer that education is going to make a difference in any kind of community. Uh\u2026 certainly when you don\u2019t have people on the same page as far as trying to get education over, that is the only thing that would change. I think there\u2019s a direct correlation between how many cells we build for the Mississippi Department of Correction and how much, what kind of quality of education we have in Mississippi.<\/p>\n

AW: I was going to ask you that uh\u2026not only as far as a correlation between people breaking the law or making errors of judgement and whatever. As far as those pockets of resistance you speak of um\u2026how would you characterize those people that uh\u2026 are resistant to the changes that took place during that era.<\/p>\n

TN: I don\u2019t fault those people, I really don\u2019t fault those people and I think of this as love of change in the heart as much as it is in the mind. Uh\u2026there\u2019s some people that, you know we are\u2026 we do have probably in Bolivar county close to 70 percent of our population is black. We probably have more black crime than we do white crime. We\u2019ve had some people who abuse the laws of Mississippi and Bolivar County more so in the black community than the white community just because of\u2026.<\/p>\n

AW: Sheer numbers.<\/p>\n

TN: Sheer numbers. Yeah more people in the Mississippi Department of Corrections as far as in their population that are black than there are white because we have a number of people, there\u2019s 39 percent or so of our population is black. In Mississippi Delta there\u2019s 70 percent plus that are black. So, we sometimes get those numbers skewed a little bit. America\u2019s sure there\u2019s too many, based on the population there\u2019s too many black people in the presence uh\u2026compared to than we think there should be based on the population in America, which is, I think the black population is something like 19 percent maybe close to 20 percent of our population is black. But we see so much good has come out of a real effort to educate and to be sure that we do as much as we can in rehabilitation in our penance system uh\u2026 even in the black community to make them productive citizens. We know it\u2019s costing us money economically when we don\u2019t do a good job of educating anyone, and I\u2019m talking about black population or white population. Anyone who feels differently than that is probably doesn\u2019t want to open their eyes to it. Do I have a problem with people who are still have real problems with integration, uh\u2026sure we all do. I mean we have some problems with that but we\u2019ve got to get past that if were going to ever, individually as a person those who do have problems as an individual as a person it only hurts that person. They, you\u2019ve got to get past it if you got to that point, uh\u2026don\u2019t let it dwell with you uh\u2026get past it as an individual and then as a family I think you have to be sure of the respect for all races and for all people. I\u2019ve taught that in my family, I try to teach it here. Uh\u2026 everybody is a special person in God\u2019s eyes no matter what race it is. Then as a community you have to reach out and you have to be sure that you don\u2019t leave somebody out as far as trying to progress in the community and make it what it should be and certainly in our state. You know the flag issue, a typical example of that. Uh\u2026 you know that vote, what it\u2019s going to do to us, I have know earthly idea. Uh\u2026 you know it was predicted all along that there was going to be a 60 percent vote for the old flag. Uh\u2026and I think there\u2019s some black members of our state, actually proven we had some people who voted for the old flag to keep the old flag that were of the black race. I certainly am progressive in looking at what we need but I really am, I don\u2019t get caught up in trying to get after or demean anybody that has problems with race relations. I hope and pray that they do better.<\/p>\n

AW: Yes sir. That\u2019s understandable and um\u2026 you been in education all this time and you\u2019ve seen changes take place in people and in the community. Um\u2026one change that is notable, and once again we are not trying to negatively characterize any one person or not any group of people. We\u2019re not also trying to focus on the negative, but historically change is not a comfortable thing. People have to you know grow into to it and have become accustomed to it and change is painful often. Um\u2026one fact of integration or one offspring from integration was the private or the academy systems here. Um\u2026did you know or do you remember the academy offspring from education and how that happened and what was the reaction of both the communities? And now\u2026I\u2019ve been in these various race relations classes at Delta State and we all know that the most segregated time in the United States is on Sunday morning. When the people of the different races, and some people say\u2026oh it\u2019s a cultural thing, yes but if you look at these mega churches, you have a mixed race of people all worshiping together and uh\u2026 so I don\u2019t know. What are your views as far as the academy goes and as far as segregation and churches go?<\/p>\n

TN: We uh\u2026 at this particular school right here we\u2019re a Christian elementary school and we have children from all races here and from all ethnic backgrounds. We believe our school is for all people. We believe in a Christian education which is real difficult to have in the public schools in Mississippi now. Uh\u2026we don\u2019t have\u2026you know the idea that we have some wonderful black children in this school but we hope that their all here to get a Christian education. We don\u2019t argue with anyone as far as what school it is. We truly believe that education is for all children. And that uh\u2026as far as a white academy verses a public school and that type thing. Here we just don\u2019t have that. You know they sprung up all over. But I truly believe that it was about quality in so many parents\u2019 eyes. And they got labeled as being a racist or that type. Where it became quality education for their children more than anything else. And certainly when you go, what we call flight-flight from the public schools uh\u2026that happened but everybody that I really seriously wanted\u2026cared about their children they didn\u2019t want them to go by themselves to an area where there was no white children to go without having others to go with them. And when it finally got to a point where it was going to be an all white thing or just a few people, or let a white race go to a black school or whatever that became necessary that they may do there best for their children at that time. But I can tell you the more I\u2019m around the white academies now, there all about quality, trying to be sure that the quality of education is there and the opportunities for the children are there. Uh\u2026 you know it would be great if it would all change and get back to something that was very normal over time but I think even for all schools I think they\u2019re looking for quality. And I think now more than ever it\u2019s what they\u2019re looking for um\u2026more so than worrying about how many blacks or how many whites are in a school. Uh\u2026but they want safe schools, they want quality education and if the public school cannot produce that, they are going to look for something that they can have and so I think it\u2019s more now than ever before, they\u2019re looking for quality, they\u2019re looking for opportunities for they\u2019re children to be successful, where they\u2019re safe. And certainly they\u2019re some places that they don\u2019t feel like they\u2019ll be safe in certain schools. Surely safety plans available and whatever and I think that would be the case. But get back to church. Church is a special thing for everyone. People worship a lot of different ways and they\u2019re going to decide how they want to worship and what\u2019s particularly\u2026I got to a church where we have black members and you know it\u2019s not that heavily done it\u2019s not mixed 50-50 or anything like, but we have black students from Delta State who visit with us all the time. We have a black member from Delta State. You know, that particular thing comes and goes and goes on down the road. Um\u2026you know it\u2019s not one of those things I dwell on or push.<\/p>\n

AW: Right.<\/p>\n

TN: Uh\u2026but it\u2019s an opportunity for anybody that wants to come worship in our church they can come worship. Uh\u2026do we go out and push for that, probably not. Uh\u2026where I go to church, but we don\u2019t discourage it either. Uh\u2026most of us we try to be sure we get there, you know\u2026and we support it and that approach. But in general I think you see basically segregated churches in the Mississippi Delta. Uh\u2026you get in bigger cities you see more integrated churches. And I don\u2019t know really where that\u2019s going to go in the days ahead. But that\u2019s less of a problem I think than\u2026what our problem is in the Mississippi Delta typical on Sunday morning we have basically 40,000 people who live here uh\u2026we probably don\u2019t have little over 6500 people go to church on Sundays here on a Sunday morning. That\u2019s black and white. When you think about church attendance\u2026<\/p>\n

AW: Goodness\u2026we\u2019re in the middle of the Bible belt.<\/p>\n

TN: Yeah in the middle of the Bible belt\u2026now if you did a survey and they ask you how many people are, have church affiliation uh\u2026they probably say 95 percent of them say probably affiliated with a church or they go to church of something. But an average on a Sunday morning in a church service all over Bolivar county uh\u2026you won\u2019t find more than about 6500 people actually go to church on that given Sunday. That don\u2019t say they members there that doesn\u2019t say they\u2019re not affiliated. We have a real problem with people getting serious about their religious faith and attendance wise. And uh\u2026that makes a difference. I do not think at any form or fashion at this point in our life that anybody is real worried or getting too upset about integrating churches. Just don\u2019t think that\u2019s a bigger thing. I think people are looking for quality, even my best friends are looking for what\u2019s best for their children. Our black parents that come to this particular elementary school they believe in Christian education where they can\u2019t have in a public school.<\/p>\n

AW: The was drawn was drawn through Bolivar, or through Cleveland<\/p>\n

TN: Right.<\/p>\n

AW: And you have two various, you have one school district and two separate sets of schools. Greenville recently redistrict and combined their schools, their high schools. Um\u2026 what do you think the outcome of something like that in Cleveland would be like?<\/p>\n

TN: I think basically, it would uh\u2026at this point uh\u2026 if they left elementary schools the way they were and put junior highs together and senior highs together, there would probably be some white flight, probably be some white flight. There would be some that would remain uh\u2026but there would be some white flight even in 2001 I think even for the last thirty years plus that uh\u2026 we had it the way it was if it ever changed like that and brought one school there would be some white flight. And I think there would be a fear of quality, a fear of safety or whatever, but I think there is some trust going on as far as the communities are concerned. Certainly a lot of working together. I mean we just have\u2026just a numbers of black friends who were just good quality people who were good quality teachers who do things for children who because they love children and want them to be successful. Uh\u2026you know\u2026my son is a product of Margaret Green and Cleveland High School and some of his best teachers were black. Uh\u2026so there\u2019s some that would leave out of fear of not knowing what would happen but there would be some that would stay and uh\u2026Certainly I personally like the idea of keeping them separate, you know why? On a given Friday night instead of eleven players on a football team playing it\u2019s 22 being played in Cleveland, 22 opportunities instead of 11 opportunities to play. Same thing with basketball or baseball or whatever we do. It just gives more children an opportunity to play and do and participate. Uh\u2026I don\u2019t get into the race part of it because I do not know if we brought them all together and we became a bigger high school would we be better academically, would we better athletically, would we be better as far as race relations are concerned. I don\u2019t think you and I have that answer and we\u2019ll probably never know that answer unless it does come to happen and then leadership must come to play.<\/p>\n

AW: Yes sir.<\/p>\n

TN: Leadership must come to play in a movement like that. In Greenville, Mississippi leadership\u2019s going to have to come because basically there\u2019s two black schools come together and there was still a lot of loyalty to one school or the other and just didn\u2019t want that to be closed. And Greenville, Mississippi is probably not a big movement as far as what it would take in Cleveland, Cleveland would be completely different and in that case, some of the same issues would still remain\u2026let me catch this\u2026<\/p>\n

AW: Okay so we talked about many things your, background, and your upbringing, and your schooling and events that took place at Delta State and in the Cleveland Public School system. I\u2019d just like to try and wrap up with a few other things real quick. As far as your political involvement, you talked about when you were at Delta State and when you were working down at Rolling Fork, right? Um\u2026your political involvement and all, if you don\u2019t mind I\u2019d like to flesh out a little bit more detail of some of the activities uh\u2026 local activities you really helped support and get going or more instrumental in as far as enhancing, like an existing program you and your fellow supervisors helped provide better services or something for.<\/p>\n

TN: Well, I think one of the things I always thought that you had to enhance a community as a whole and I got into my political endeavors as far as running for the Mississippi Legislator in 1975 it was all about trying to represent the people, and I knew who I was going to represent and I ran county wide. At that particular time you ran county wide for four particular slots for Mississippi Legislature. And but I you know I went into every community and I had to win in black boxes and white boxes to represent the people. My point is, which is rather difficult that there was some people who were running against me who did a little different politicking to get the black vote. And of course I was so honest I wasn\u2019t going to promise them anything and tell them that they were going to have jobs and I was going to do this and that for them and I couldn\u2019t do that so in turn I lost it by a couple hundred votes and in a county wide race. And so I felt strongly about as far as that part was concerned. Uh\u2026but uh\u2026you know, as I look at what we did to try to be sure that our county was the way it was suppose to be I think probably when I got on the county board of supervisors I truly believed that I could represent all of our constituents and I had part of the county, part of my district was in the county that would have required what I call city services, from garbage to drainage to whatever. And I had part of mine, my development area was part of that and so I spent a world of time trying to improve that because I knew how important it was for us to be able to govern in a way that had support from all parts of the community. Now, there were some people that weren\u2019t paying any taxes, as much compared to the other and speaking of the county government property taxes is the part that pays for county government. Uh\u2026I\u2019m sure we had revenue sharing, sure we had some other pockets of support as far as that. But really (not audible) taxes take care of county government. So I knew that I had to give some service, I mean I had to give some support to some areas that weren\u2019t tax payers but in the same breath I wanted to be sure that we left nobody behind, that paid every taxes or didn\u2019t. And so I learned real quick during those five years, and this was a time of reappraisal in Mississippi, where all property had to be reappraised and that\u2019s probably one of the biggest things that my accomplishments was dealing with that particular part. Same thing I will tell you about, in general, we truly believed that if, and throwing politics out the window that if Cleveland and Bolivar County were going to go forward and I represented Cleveland, part of Cleveland, and a lot of my constituents were from the black community because I had a majority black area. I had convinced them that I did care about them and that I did want to represent them and I did support some of the things that they were doing. Probably the toughest thing is is to be able to tell somebody something that your going to do when you know you can\u2019t do it and in politics that game was played sometimes and there was no way in the world you could accomplish that. Guaranteeing jobs at the hospital or guaranteeing jobs in the industry or whatever. And a political person in the county supervisors he can say he can help you but he\u2019s no guarantee. But we knew we had to employ our people, we had to find opportunities for economic development for our people. And I spent a world of time being sure that we could get everything we could to be sure that was something that was taken care of, that every opportunity for employment to get people on a payroll, to get them off welfare and get them opportunities to be successful uh\u2026to have better self-esteem for every individual. And if the leader of that household was employed and the mother was employed or whether she supported the household and the father worked that it worked and it was something that was happening to make things economically growing in Cleveland. So, for my time that I served and I wanted to represent all the people. Number two I wanted to find jobs for our people cause I knew that was important. So we spend a world of time and a world of money uh\u2026 from support of the and working with them to produce the Rosedale port. Uh\u2026we even bought a railroad at that time and I got heavy criticism for participating in buying a railroad system that was fixing to be taken up, but we wanted to be sure that the port had a railroad to be able to get down to the C&G in Greenville and be able to carry our stuff on from there if we needed that. We\u2019ve been able to keep that railroad, where others have been taken up. Hopefully we\u2019ll be able to always keep that so we can carry our stuff into Greenville and have it sold so we could go the east and the west of market.<\/p>\n

AW: So you bought a railroad to keep Bolivar County connected with the larger city of Greenville?<\/p>\n

TN: Right and you know that was to keep our port active too. We knew that some things that came in from the port needed to go out by rail. Uh\u2026. it was a practical move to help us uh\u2026do that. And so I was instrumental in that. Uh\u2026you know, one of the things that I really been active in as far as, the area here is keeping Cleveland, Bolivar County clean. We started a mosquito control program in Cleveland and I really am strong about that right now. I think the quality of life is enhanced by that and uh\u2026 that type thing.<\/p>\n

AW: Uh\u2026those events, uh\u2026I wish that\u2019s some of the things that definitely we wanted to capture is some of those from your, you know, administration.<\/p>\n

TN: Um hum.<\/p>\n

AW: Some of those events that took place that brought jobs in for people and kept Bolivar County tied in with the rest of the economic, um\u2026Greenville which is one of our larger cities. And um\u2026 you know, the way you were talking about supporting your constituency and education and social economic area and all. Those are the type of things that we want to make sure we capture. As well as, your recollections and memories of the past and where we\u2019ve come from and where we\u2019re at now. How we got to where we\u2019re at and I guess where we\u2019re going to go to, I guess that\u2019s still up in the air. I sure appreciate your time very much and um\u2026. if the archives asks for a follow up interview or something would we be able to come back and ask you some more specified, specific questions.<\/p>\n

TN: Sure. I could probably do a little research on some of them to get more on my tongue about some things I probably missed telling you but uh\u2026 those are things that uh\u2026all of us uh\u2026if John and I got in the same room with you uh\u2026 you know, we\u2026. that\u2019s\u2026. I suggest this to you uh\u2026 to all the people is to possibility to get John Pearson, get me and some other folks that have been in politics and around here for a while to be able to talk about in one room uh\u2026 you could really bounce off some super stuff.<\/p>\n

AW: Well, I\u2019ll bring that to their attention. (End of tape)<\/p>\n

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